Our guest for this week’s episode of M&A Masters is Gina Cocking, CEO and Managing Director of Colonnade Advisors LLC.
Colonnade Advisors is a boutique investment banking firm that specializes in merger and acquisition advisory services, providing financial advice to business owners interested in selling their companies, buying competitors, and raising capital. Gina was employee number one at Colonnade, then left to pursue other interests. She returned to Colonnade Advisors as a Managing Director in 2014.
Despite overlap between our practices, there are a lot of parallels going forward and I think you will greatly benefit from this episode.
Listen as we talk about:
Patrick Stroth: Hello there, I’m Patrick Stroth, trusted authority on executive and transactional liability, and president of Rubicon M&A Insurance Services. Now a proud member of Liberty Company Group of Insurance Brokers. Welcome to M&A Masters where I speak with the leading experts in mergers and acquisitions. And we’re all about one thing here, that’s a clean exit for owners, founders and their investors. Today I’m joined by Gina Cocking CEO and managing director of Colonnade Advisors, LLC.
Based in Chicago, Colonnade is a boutique investment banking firm that specializes in merger and acquisition advisory services with exceptional strength in serving the clients in the financial services sector. Now while there’s been little overlap between our respective practices up up to date, there are a lot of parallels with what we’re seeing going forward and Gina and I’m very excited because my audience is really going to benefit from your perspective today. So thank you very much for joining.
Gina Cocking: Oh, thank you for having me. I’m excited to be on.
Patrick: Now before we get into Colonnade in the financial services sector and all that great stuff. Let’s kind of ease into this. Why don’t we start with you. What brought you to this point in your career?
Gina: This is my favorite topic. You know, I love being an investment banker. I really, really do. You I get to learn about businesses from best in class entrepreneurs. We at Colonnade, don’t do restructurings, we only work with successful companies. I get to spend my days hanging out with entrepreneurs and leaders of companies that have built organizations that have grown and are now selling for large prices. Like a masterclass every week on how to run a business. So I have loved to be in investment banking. When I started my career out in investment banking and left it for a little while. Hated those years when I was gone and had a chance to come back.
I started, I went to University of Chicago undergrad and I joined a firm that is no longer around called Kidder Peabody. It was a bulge bracket investment bank in the 90s that was owned by GE of all places. But at Kidder Peabody, I did mergers and acquisitions, a lot in insurance and, and general industrial companies. I spent a year with Madison Dearborn Partners, a large private equity firm. When I was in business school at the University of Chicago, I spent a summer with JPMorgan in equity capital markets, and then had the chance to come back to JPMorgan after graduation, where I did a lot of mergers and acquisitions out of the Chicago office.
I’d left JPMorgan after a few years to join the person who was then the head of the Technology Group at JPMorgan when he founded Colonnade Advisors. So I was employee number one at Colonnade. We initially focused on technology companies and business services companies. I was with colonnade for five, four or five years and had a challenge balancing having a young child at home having a husband who was a partner in his law firm, and just generally handling all the travel that’s in investment banking. So I left investment banking, and I became the CFO of a number of companies. I was the CFO of an equipment finance company, a company that did about we had a portfolio about $35 million.
I was the CFO of a private equity backed manufacturing company, and I was the divisional CFO at Discover Financial Services. So Discover the credit card company also had a $29 billion direct to consumer bank that I oversaw finance for. A $5 billion personal loan portfolio at that time. And then also all of non card operations. I oversaw the finance teams for that. And then in 2014, I had the chance to come back to Colonnade which was a thrill of a lifetime. Investment bankers don’t often have the chance to leave the industry and then come back.
Patrick: Yeah, you can get very stale very quickly.
Gina: Exactly. Exactly my partners took a risk and brought me back and it was perfect timing because my career and what Collonade had been doing dovetailed together. They had been focusing on financial services and business services during the intervening years and so I brought back my operation experience and financial services and we’ve been growing ever since.
Patrick: Then at the core of that is the expertise where your role as a CFO, so you can’t bypass that discipline and have that expert not have that expertise. And so you definitely were staying, you know, in the game as somebody. Now with Colonnade now that you transition from technology over into financial services. That is a market that is not for the beginners, okay. You’re going in, particularly in the area that you are because you’re in the ideal spot I mean, everybody would love to be selling, you know, in real estate that prime real estate and the mansions and all that which is where you are.
You’re definitely not in the startup phase or the turnaround phase. So you don’t have the right degree journey once you now have all these really ideal targets, okay? And so that’s not with a lack of competition. So talk about Colonnade and how you cut your own niche within financial services, and talk about the type of competition because I mean, I can imagine you’ve got the big gorillas like Goldman, you know, come coming into that area too.
Gina: Sometimes, sometimes, yes. So we have found at Colonnade, that focus has been the key to our success, and the success that our clients have. We have dialed into a few niches that have really helped us understand the buyers of those companies, and understand the accounting issues that come up in those companies and the operational issues that come up. And I think that really gives us an edge over other investment banks that companies may consider hiring, they just don’t have the same type of experience. So for example, one of the areas that we have done a lot of work in is insurance premium finance. We have done like 27, 28 transactions in insurance premium finance that we’ve actually printed.
There are a couple of buy sides ones that didn’t actually end up, our clients didn’t win. But we’re involved in pretty much every insurance premium finance transaction that happens in the industry. So I guess you could say that we’re the national leaders in that practice. We are quite active in the automotive finance and insurance space. So that is a $81 billion dollar at retail industry. So that includes vehicle service contracts, car warranties, tire wheel contracts, all those types of products that consumers can buy at an auto dealership. There’s been a lot of M&A activity in that space. And we’re very active. We do a lot of work with equipment, finance companies.
And so small and large equipment finance companies, we work with both balance sheet intensive businesses on the financial services side, and businesses that are asset light. For example, just last week, we sold Open Road Lending to Clarion Capital Partners. Open Road Lending is a direct to consumer auto refinance company. So they placed the paper then on their lending partners books. They do high transaction volume, billions of dollars worth of loans over time, but they aren’t putting those loans on their balance sheet. So those are the types of companies that we’re working with. And what we have found is because we as I said, I’m dialed into these types of companies.
We have pattern recognition. So we know what to watch for with these deals. We know to watch for with these companies. And then sometimes complex accounting issues that come up. We see this a lot in the auto F&I space. Rather than just using gap accounting or even cash accounting. There’s actually another methodology called modified cash accounting. Modified cash is what those types of the auto F&I companies actually trade on. So we are pretty well versed in how to handle modified cash accounting. And so that’s what we bring to our customers or our clients is by focusing on several within financial services, even in several niches. It really lends to our expertise, and we bring a lot to our clients.
We also do a lot of work in business services. In business services, often it’s business services that overlap with financial services. So it might be businesses services related to auto dealerships, or business services companies that are in auto dealerships. Or Insurance Services companies, or financial services companies that really aren’t doing anything with consumers, but actually, technology or products into financial services companies. And so we keep our universe kind of corralled into what we look. That means sometimes we turn down deals, but the general industrial deal will frequently turn it down, which can hurt. But it keeps us focused and helps us give a better product to our clients.
Patrick: Well, I can imagine the more you look at an industry, you focus and drill down, you’re going to find these niches and this entire universe of different classes of businesses within there. Yeah, I think what happens oftentimes where, you know, my experience is, you know, people are, are looking to have the problem solved. And if you could understand the unique problems that are particular to that particular business, okay, right. And you can solve their problem and they trust you to solve their problem, you’re going to be a lot more successful and a lot more effective.
And you just cut out the waiting time and the delays. With all the noise with everybody else. You don’t venture in there. I would say to anybody, if you’re in these particular silos, okay, this is where you have to find a specialist like Gina in Colonnade and say, look, we have, we have the types of problems that we know they can solve, they don’t have a learning curve to undergo at our expense. And we’re gonna maximize that. So I think that’s outstanding. One of the dynamics that I want to check with, with you on with investment bankers is that a lot of what we do is in the lower middle market. Sub 100 million dollar transaction value in many cases sub 10 million.
In those areas, you know, engaging an investment banker is looked upon as almost a luxury or, you know, it’s optional. Sometimes at the event it you know, at the advice of an aggressive strategic buyer, saying you don’t need, you don’t need that. But it’s optional. When we get to where you are, if you can share with us, you know, your, your, your deal size, your target range, but at at this level, with this sophistication, I mean, you’re mandatory, right. Tell us what the difference is.
Gina: Sure, you know, our typical deal size, is say, 75 to 125 million, we do larger transactions, we’ve had quite a few that are larger, we do smaller transactions. A threshold, though, is really about 4 million in EBITDA. And the reason for that is is the buyer universe we work with a lot, the PE firms we know well, are generally of that size. So when we’re working with smaller companies, we don’t have the same types of relationships to identify those buyers. So we tend to work with companies of that size. Now, generally, what we find is, you know, in working with a lower middle market versus a larger company. The larger companies usually have leadership teams that have more experience in M&A. They either have gone through it themselves, they’ve gone through a capital raise, or they maybe have bought companies already, they’ve done inorganic activities to get them to where they are.
And so we work with them, they’re more prepared for us to walk in. Their books are in better order, their story is tighter. It’s prepared, they have contracts in place where they need to, it’s not as much on the back of the envelope. With earlier stage companies, oftentimes, what we find is, you know, there’s a little more softness into what they do. So they might not have contracts with some of their key partners. They might not have employment agreements in place with their employees, or non disclosure agreements, or non compete agreements with employees. They might do sometimes what we call an electronic shoe box for their financials. You know, they don’t have audited financials, because the CEO says, it’s a waste of money to have audited financials.
Patrick: We’ve had QuickBooks for 10 years, we’re fine.
Gina: Exactly. exactly. It is never a waste of money to get an audit. It’s like not going to the dentist. Do you not go to the dentist and let your teeth fall out? Do you run your company without an audit? You don’t know what’s happening. Like, well, I don’t worry about it Gina because I don’t have, I’m not worried about fraud my company. That’s not why you do an audit, you might not have your financials in accordance with gap. If they’re not in accordance with gap, you may not be making as much money as you think. Or you may be making less than you think. And that can impact your value.
So what we find in working with some of the smaller companies, is we need to roll up our sleeves a little bit more, and help get them market ready. And that is helping them build a detailed financial model. Helping them go through a sell side quality of earnings, helping them prepare schedules that they will need for the process. Helping review some of their contracts and talking about what they need to have in place. In addition to the coaching of how to go through a process. But really the rolling up our sleeves and getting involved with the companies is where some of our biggest value add is for companies that have never gone through a process like this before. And we kind of bake that into even from our first conversations when we’re reviewing their financials, and helping them think through things and we always talk about when we go in.
Whatever is on your income statement. We’re going to talk through with you every item. We’re going to help you figure out what kind of adjustments and add backs you have. You may have personal expenses running through your income statement and that’s okay. You won’t under a new buyer. So let’s adjust the financial statements for those personal, the income statement items. If you’re doing it because for tax reasons, whatever that’s between you and your tax accountant in the IRS. Let’s add it back though for understanding what your true company profitability is. And we’re really good at doing that.
Patrick: Overall the whole process I mean, the huge thing is you got to manage expectations and guide them through the process. And kind of be the sounding board. So you play all that bedside manner, in addition for the inexperienced as well as the experienced.
Gina: That’s right. You know, we just recently lost out we lost out on a deal. A firm didn’t want to hire us because they said our valuation wasn’t high enough. They said you guys are undervalued. Colonnade, you’re undervaluing us. So they went a different route. And they thought they were going to get a lot more for their company. And they went through a process and there was a higher, there was a higher sticker price on the company originally, and then the deal closed, right where we told them it would. And so we do work to manage expectations. We don’t over promise and under deliver. I can’t sleep at night doing that. So we we go out with a valuation, we are pretty honest about what we think the company is worth, because we know we can deliver.
Patrick: And I think I think the other value add that you bring in this is that you’re helping sellers and you know, owners and founders with this, you got a nice network of reliable buyers where you may know what they’re looking for, you have the relationship, and they trust you and you trust them. Because if they’re just kicking the tires for an exercise, and they’re not going to be there, they’re not on your list. Talk about that real quick on the relationships on that side, because I think that’s something you don’t need tons of buyers, you just need one really good one. It could be two, but you just need one.
Gina: We are, well I went to the University of Chicago. So I believe in free markets and, and the free market will determine what the price of something is. We can we can do lots of valuation work. And I am I actually won a contest when I was in business school on valuation. But that was like a national competition that U of C participated in. So I’m really good at valuation. But I will tell you, it doesn’t matter. What matters is what somebody is willing to buy your company for. And the best way to determine what the price of your company is, is through a broad market process.
And that’s going to multiple buyers in finding out who is going to bid for the company and what price. When you talk to just one potential buyer. And it’s like, you know, I know this company, and they’re going to buy me and I’m going to get a great price. Of course, the buyer’s going to say, I’m going to pay you a great price. And we get a great price, you don’t know what the rest of the markets willing to pay. They might be willing to pay you 10 times, the next company might be willing to pay 14 times.
So it’s best to do a broad process and talk to as many buyers at the same time, and get everybody to put their best foot forward on what the price of the company is. And that will kind of keep the process moving quickly. Because everybody’s worried about losing out on the deal. And it will uncover what the market really believes the value of your company is. And that’s what investment bankers do. We help uncover the highest value through usually through running a process.
Patrick: And it also is just aligning interests, is making sure you get from point A to close and you get through that. Now in addition, all these wonderful things that you do in this is a parallel between Colonnade and Rubicon is you’ve been very active with sharing information, sharing content, sharing, you know, educating the community and and just sharing your knowledge base and what you’re seeing out there. And you’re doing it through some excellent white papers.
You have just launched and if you could talk about this, in that you’ve just launched what you call a an index on SPACs, called the SPAC Attack Index with your partner, Jeff Guylay. And then in addition, and then finally, it’s a crime if I don’t mention that you’re the host of Middle Market Mergers and Acquisitions podcast, you have a podcast as well. So give me your philosophy with what you’re sharing and the various things you’re out there. We will in the show notes direct every our audience, they will all go and swarm your site. Why don’t you talk about that.
Gina: Well, first of all, these activities we do are a little bit self serving, because they’re good intellectual exercises. When we write a white paper, it’s hard. It’s painful. It takes a lot of work. But it causes us to come up with a point of view and really think about industries and think about what are the drivers of valuations? What are the drivers of market activity? Who are the buyers, why are companies doing what they’re doing. They are a great exercise for us and our clients benefit from it. And you know, it’s all about having discipline. I could sit there and write a nice, we could all sit there and write a paper for ourselves, but not quite as motivated.
But when we do it, we’re publishing it, you know we have more motivation to do that. And so we find that number one, that’s a great side benefit of these papers. Number two, these pieces are really out there to help educate potential buyers. So private equity firms and strategic companies that are maybe thinking about the F&I industry, or they’re really trying to understand what’s happening in the SPAC market. By doing these, we are raising awareness and educating those parties. Like we’ll do white papers on the automotive F&I industry and private equity firms.
When thinking about the space, they will Google, they’ll Google auto F&I M&A, and one of our white papers will come up and they’ll find some insights. And then like, wait, now I’m smarter. Now I can go bid on a company that Colonnade or someone else is selling and I have a clue as to what I’m doing. And we use it to educate the buyer universe. So we have better buyers. And to then the buyer universe is usually reaching out to us and saying, you guys obviously know this space, well, we want to see your next deal. And that’s why Colonnade is so good for our clients, because we know who the buyers are, because they’re coming to us.
Patrick: I think that what we do is the more we educate the community out there, it will to our benefit eventually. If you do it solely as as a you know, as a scheme to drive up clicks or whatever, I think is going to backfire. If you have purity of intent because with your your MBA, or your business school stuff in Chicago, so your ideal capitalist, I am an ideal abundance guy. And I keep thinking, the more we put out there, the more the higher quality is going to be available. And it’s also we start by giving. If we give you something and get this out there, you know, people are going to benefit and it does come around.
Gina: Now, I would say also, on our podcast, one of the reasons why we do our podcast, it’s a little bit different target market. It’s not the private equity community, because our podcast is on middle market mergers and acquisitions. They know how to do that. It’s really to help companies out there, owners of companies that are thinking about going through a process and how they can think how they prepare. I mean, it’s it’s intimidating.
When you sell a company, if you’re an entrepreneur and you’re selling your company, it is one of the biggest decisions you are going to make in your professional career, maybe one of the bigger ones in your life. It’s kind of like going into buy a car. It’s your first time car buyer. It’s a little intimidating. So like, I don’t know anything about cars, and they’re all talking about all the stuff I don’t understand. Same thing in M&A. And so what we hope is that our podcast by going through and deep diving into the tactics, and the techniques and the processes that are used in M&A.
Patrick: Each step of the way. You’re addressing each step of the process. Yes.
Gina: Exactly. So then you’re not, you know, when a company is ready to talk to an investment banker or talk to a buyer, they kind of know what’s coming. They’re not thrown for a loop. For example, when somebody says, well, you know, we need to do an escrow they’re gonna be like, wait a minute, wait a minute, I remember from the podcast that reps and warranty insurance is the way to go. I don’t need to tie up my capital and my money for two to three years when escrow works out. We can solve this through reps and warranty insurance and by the way Mr. Buyer you should pay for it.
Patrick: You’re walking right right into you know, our area of expertise. You actually have a fantastic episode on reps and warranties that I highly recommend. One of the things you mention about in the mindset there for owners and founders, especially the ones that haven’t experienced you know, an acquisition before. It’s not only just going into buy a car for the first time. It’s buying a car when you’re only 15 and a half. So really don’t know what you don’t know. You have this kind of you know, this is a you know, I consider this not just a life changing, but a potentially generational change opportunity for families.
And going in there I mean, you have that whole issue of fear. And you know, the fear of the unknown what’s going on and it’s not your fault is just you know, you don’t know. And and the buyers unfortunately are not going to you know, make you feel any better when they’re talking about indemnification and well we’ve got these it’s just usual standard of business we have, you know, your reps and we need to be able to have a money back guarantee. And you know, that brings in tension which can be you know, released with reps and warranties which essentially takes the indemnity obligation away from the seller goes to an insurance company.
Gina: That’s right.
Patrick: Buyer suffers a loss. Buyer doesn’t go after the seller, buyer goes right to an insurance company and I’m just good, bad or indifferent. Your mission is almost a standard so I get the impression you trust but you know, don’t take my word for it, folks. You know, Gina, what’s your impression with reps and warranties?
Gina: You know, I think it’s essential in deals today. Number one, it takes away, as you mentioned, the tension or the potential for conflict. So here’s a scenario, entrepreneur builds a company, and sells the company to a private equity firm, or majority stake to the private equity firm. But that entrepreneur still has 30% equity rollover in the company. And an entrepreneur is continuing to run the business. One year down the road, something comes up, that is, could be an issue that would go against the reps, representations and warranties in the purchase agreement. Okay, that’s really stressful.
Now you have a situation where you have the private equity firm, the board and CEO of the company, are in conflict over something that CEO is like I didn’t even have anything to do with that issue. That was one of my employees two years ago. And they’re arguing about that. And how do you get past it? How do you run the business day to day, and still had a good healthy relationship? Reps and warranty insurance, separates that problem and reduces the tension that’s there.
Patrick: Yeah, I think it’s very elegant. That happens to Silicon Valley quite a bit where you, I mean, the dilemma happens where you’ve got a good sized buyer, there’s a, you know, there’s an escrow, or a withhold of, let’s say, five, five to $10 million, and you’re bringing on this rockstar development team, and they’re looking for their money after 12 months. And then there’s a breach that happens, was out of everybody’s knowledge out of everybody’s control. And the dilemma for the buyer is this. Do we clawback this money that they’re waiting for? Okay, that they’re counting on? Or do we just eat the loss?What do we do? Right? Now there’s rep and warranty insurance in place, all of a sudden that that’s a non issue.
Hey, you’re putting the claim and it’s all taken care of. So we find that. I would say that the biggest development that’s happening in the reps and warranties market now as this has been a product with the province of deals with transaction values of a 15 million legitimate and up. You can go lower, but the diligence requirements are such that it’s usually more favorable at the $50 million threshold and up. However, there is a new program out there is a sell side policy, which will insure owners and founders of companies with enterprise values of 500,000 to 10 million.
And a policy will cover to the entire enterprise value. It is a newly launched program out there, we’re very excited about it. We think about it, while this is too small for a Colonnade type client it is not too small for add ons. And there are a lot of in particularly in technology here in Silicon Valley, there are a lot of seven $8 million add ons that are brought on every day that have they don’t have access to the benefits of reps and warranties. So we always want to highlight that.
Gina: That’s a really good product. And we work a lot with companies that are doing add on acquisitions especially, we see this a lot in the automotive F&I space, where they’re buying agencies and those agencies are smaller transactions. And you don’t want to involve you know, they’re too small, historically, for reps and warranty insurance. But you don’t want to tell the guy I’m buying your agency for $8 million. And by the way, we’re going to put $2 million into escrow. I mean, that’s horrible. So you’re just kind of setting up a rough situation. So that policy solves a lot of problems.
Patrick: Absolutely. So what’s what I’m very proud of with with a dynamic insurance market that we have is there are needs that are coming up and in the market is rising to meet those needs. So I’m excited to see how this goes forward. And and Gina as we’re looking forward, okay, we’re, you know, latter part of 2021. I blinked and this year just went through. You know, what do you see for, you know, forget 2021. What do you see for 2022? I mean, macro or just with Colonnade?
Gina: Sure, well, let’s look at the the macro side, you know, we are in a low interest rate environment, we are in an inflationary environment. And we are in an environment that we have a very large private equity overhang through the pandemic, we even in May, June of last year, private equity firms were raising new funds. There’s a lot of assets allocated to the alternative asset class, the private equity asset class. And so there’s a lot of funds to be deployed. So there are buyers for companies. There are more buyers probably and there are good companies to bought. And that’s driving up valuations.
Patrick: It’s a seller’s market. Yes.
Gina: It’s a seller’s market. And I don’t think that is going to going to abate in in 2022, maybe even to 2023. I usually don’t look beyond 18 months, but I still think it’s going to continue to be a strong M&A market. And there are companies that have come through the pandemic now. We’ve been through the worst of the pandemic, and we’re seeing either they did well through the pandemic or their recovering coming through the pandemic. So 2022 is the year that they’re going to sell, we kind of will say, you know, let’s not, let’s not focus too much on what happened in 2020, or first part of 2021. But things are back to normal, they’re going to sell in 2022.
So I think there’s M&A activity is still going to be high. There’s still going to be a lot of interest in it. I do think it’s a tough environment for businesses to operate. You know, wages are going up, and wages are going up because of inflation. And because people want more money for doing their jobs, and the I’ve never was not a big fan of higher minimum wages. I am a big fan of people getting paid more, because they demand it. If nobody’s going to work for $10 an hour, then you need to pay a lot more. And so that is impacting companies.
And so when wages go up, either margins shrink, or that gets passed on to the end customers. And so it gets passed on to the end customer, things are getting more expensive as a result. And there that might cause some dislocations in the economies and there and some industries will be hurt more than others. We see this and in travel and leisure and entertainment, and in retail restaurants. Other parts of the US economy are doing really well. People are figuring out ways, other ways to deploy their capital. I think financial services products is one of them.
Patrick: I think that there’s just going to be new platforms for buying selling for financing things, just the way people pay for things is changing. And so we’re going to be a lot of force changes. There’s going to be I think, I’ll go out on a limb and say not only will things not slow down, I think if there is a slowdown, it’ll just be a slowing in the pace, but we will not see M&A fall off the cliff. There are many demographic issues, there are too many technology change issues that are going. There are all these forces that are coming out. I think the other thing that is a wonderful, wonderful outcome. And nobody thought about this is how many people stopped work the pandemic.
And when they’re returning to the workforce, they are not returning as employees, they’re looking to buy and start their own companies. And I mean, as basic as landscaping and car washes, could then go and then we got roll ups with that. And you know, and a lot of other things. So I think, you know, I would say the American spirit for innovation is not limited to Silicon Valley. It’s everywhere. And I think it’s gonna be a lot of fun and they’re great firms like yours out there with Colonnade that are holding the hand for those for those pros that you know they made it from, you know, A to AA, and you’re getting them to jump AAA into the majors. So I think it’s great, and I can’t thank you enough for this. Gina, how can our audience members find you?
Gina: Sure. The easiest way is to go to our website for Colonnade Advisors, which is c o l a dv.com. I am on LinkedIn as is my partner Jeff Guylay. So Gina Gina Cocking on LinkedIn, Jeff Guylay, LinkedIn. Colonnade Advisors on LinkedIn. And that’s where you’ll see a lot of our content and so we we we post regularly and we post about things that we think matter to companies in the financial services industry, young companies and to buyers at companies and so we try to be pretty informative with what we put out there.
Patrick: And I one plug for your podcast I will tell you this just fun little fact with podcasters okay. There are over 1 million podcast series on Apple iTunes, okay, and people think barrier to entry there are too many, okay. Your average podcast series doesn’t go past four episodes. You are well past that as you’re already on, on the upper half, upper half. So congratulations. Gina thank you again.
Gina: Thank you, Patrick. It’s good to speak with you.